This Sunday is hot, humid, and the G train to Williamsburg isn't running. Down by the water in Brooklyn, USA tonight's all-female Lady Fest East line-up is attempting to do sound checks on a system that leaves much to be desired, if you pay attention to all the grumbling coming from the night's performers. Situated beside two turntables and a microphone is Renee Scroggins and the Scroggins sisters, daughters and nieces that make up ESG. The band began as a sister act; now it's a multi-generation, extended family affair.

The set up is an interesting one: on one side of the stage, a DJ cuts, scratches and juggles other people's records. On the other side is ESG, one of the most sampled groups in hip hop history and one of the most adamant opponents of sampling around (in the '80s, they released a record called Sample Credits Don't Pay Our Bills). 20 years ago, they played alongside the Clash and Larry Levan. They came out of the Bronx at the same moment hip hop was taking shape. Today, their name is largely unknown to the same heads that nod to their beats once they've been re-worked by producers and extrapolated by DJs.

ESG are back with a brand new album, Step Off, on Soul Jazz Records. Although, as they'll tell you, they never left. Junkmedia caught up with Renee to talk about the new album, the good ol' days and the bittersweet ground in between.

During the gap between your original hey day and now, what have you been doing?

Well, the thing is, we've always played. I mean, we've always put out music, whether on small independent labels or on our own labels. We were always recording. We were always playing live. We never truly stopped.

Did you take time off to have families or did all that happen while you were on tour?

Well, yeah. Both my sister and I played up right until our ninth month of pregnancy. Three days after I gave birth to my daughter, I was on stage at Pasadena Civic Center playing.

So, a true working mom.

Certainly!

Now, did ESG go to Soul Jazz, or did they come to you?

Oh, they came to us.

So they put out the first record (an anthology of earlier ESG material). Were they the ones that decided they wanted you to do a brand new album?

No. We told them. I said, "Listen, you know. We have new material. Everybody thinks that ESG is just like this old stuff, but we have new stuff." And they were interested, said whatever you have, we'll do it, you get it in. And it's working out fine.

Soul Jazz has a reputation of rescuing people from obscurity and educating people about what came out before. Do you feel like you've found a home with them?

Yeah. I find them to be real cool, and they seem to understand. And they leave us alone. With major labels, it's like they sign you, and then they start messing with your sound. They want to change you. But at Soul Jazz, we just do what we do. And they put it out.

I know ESG has been touring extensively in Europe. How have you been received there?

Great. I mean, over there, we play to larger audiences. I mean stadium type of things. They seem to be receptive to the new material. But that's not to knock anything, because Americans have been receptive. The job is just to get them to come out to the clubs and expose them to it.

When you were recording Step Off did you want to stick to the original sound of your bigger hits or have you changed it up through the years?

All I can say that's really different about this album is there's more lyrics. But, I mean, I think ESG always kept its funky sounds.

Do you expect to be as highly sampled off this record as you were on your previous work?

Yeah, yeah I can see it. You know, somebody said to me during an interview, "So you are prepared to be sampled again, aren't you?" I didn't want to think about it, but yeah. I'm not happy about it...PLEASE DON'T DO IT!

Are you open to people who come forward, just straight up, and say, "We really like your music, we'd like to sample it, we want to pay you." Are you receptive to that or are you just against it in principle?

Well, I would say yes and no. It's never that simple, okay? They come to you, tell you we're using your music, and then they like to tell you what they're going to give you for using your music. So if it was "We're using your music, and let's be fair, and blah blah blah." That would be lovely! But it always turns into a real ugly thing and you have to settle the situation. The attitude is like, "You should be happy with what you got." But I was never happy that you sampled my music in the first damn place, okay?

So it's not just the context in which they place your music? It's just the fact that musicians want to sample your music, period?

Yeah. I personally do not appreciate it. I don't like sampling. Well, when we first started playing music, I thought music was about people expressing their individuality, expressing their thing, be it rock or heavy metal or what have you. I respect the fact that they're making their own music. That's what I thought music was about. So when rap and hip hop came out and people were doing all this sampling like this is a new art -NO! You're using a record that's already been proven to be tried-and-true.and you're just monopolizing and capitalizing on that fact and that's not okay, not at all.

You are from the Bronx, the birthplace of hip hop. Did being from the Bronx influence or predicate your music, or your attitude towards making music?

No, I mean, like I said, when we came, we came out just to play music. We weren't trying to make a statement or message. We were just kids from the Bronx having fun and we just happened on the scene. So no, I think it was just simple music that got caught up in a scene.

Speaking of scenes: Malcolm McLaren (of Sex Pistols fame) tells a story about running into Afrika Bambaataa when he was wearing a Sex Pistols shirt and being surprised that he knew about the group. Do you ever get a reaction from people like that? Did people wonder, "How did you get here? What are you doing here?"

No, not at all. Especially when we first started playing the punk clubs, we were accepted. And I was the one that was culture shocked. It was just as much a culture shock to us that there were all these different people out there dancing and jamming to our music. We felt good about that.

And you guys had the advantage of being able to cross over scenes a lot, too. I would have killed to have been at the Paradise Garage when you were playing alongside Larry Levan.

Oh man. Now that was fun. And Paradise Garage was one of our favorite places to play because it had the most amazing sound system. The sound system in there was like WOW!

There a lot of groups out there today that seem to be retro for retro's sake. There's the Strokes and the Hives and the groups like that, and there are all the neo-soul artists. Are you ever afraid that new fans will lump you into that category? I mean, you're an originator, but do you ever feel like the history of ESG is lost and that, with the new album, you're a new group to people?

Oh, you scared me for a minute. I was about to say how can I get lumped in; I'm an original myself. [laughs] But I suppose it's possible. It wouldn't surprise me. But you can't be ESG, because there's an ESG story. I think we were innovators and that we still are innovators, as far as making music is concerned. Be who you are, because you're not ESG.

If your mother had consulted you before going out and buying you the instruments that you eventually formed the band with, would you have picked the same instruments? Would you be playing what, and how, you do today?

Yeah (laughs). I mean, sure. Especially at that time, all the kids wanted to play the electronic instruments, and stuff like that. But you know, that wasn't on mom's budget, so we ended up with the more primitive ones.

Has having your daughters in the band changed the focus of the group at all?

Oh no, for us it's just fun. It's a bonding experience. Especially when we get together and rehearse. It's fun for them, and I think they enjoy being in "mom's band."

Are you ever leery of being pigeon-holed in the "feminist" category, being an all-female group and playing at events like "Lady Fest"?

We're not feminists. We're just women who play music. And yes, we're strong women. But why do people always want to characterize us as feminists? I always tell people, the only reason we started out as sisters playing music is because I had sisters. If I had brothers, it would have been me playing with a bunch of my younger brothers.

So, the inevitable question. Which current artists do you listen to now?

Ummm, you know, it's funny. I don't get to listen to a lot of stuff. Every now and then, okay. I like Alicia Keys, I like Eve, as far as rap artists go. But to be honest, I like the old school stuff. James Brown is STILL the stuff. And I listen to a lot of old stuff, believe me. Oh .QUEEN! I'm a big Queen fan. I drive my kids crazy. Oh, and we know some queens. I'll always remember: my son was ten years old at the time and his teacher called me and said, "Nicholas gave such an interesting display in the talent contest today." And I didn't know they'd had a talent contest. So I asked her, "What did he sing?" And she hesitated and then told me he'd done Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody." I said to myself, "Nooooooooo . Nicholas did NOT sing Queen's 'Bohemian Rhapsody.'" And it was funny, because I didn't even know that he knew the lyrics. But he picked it up around the house. Because we used to let Queen rip!

I don't want to take up too much of your time because I know you have other interviews. But do you have anything else you want to add? Maybe something you've always wanted an interviewer to ask you that they never do?

Well, I always hate these things, because I always think later that there's so much more I could have said. But I would say that we're having a good time. This is a very personal experience; it's a bonding experience. But we're going to keep playing music as long as we can. And you know, people always say to me: "I want to be in the music business, what do you think I should do?" And I tell them "Learn some BUSINESS!" Because this is a business. I mean, yes, there's the music, but there are people who are in the business of music, you know? I used to take a lot of things personally, as an artist, because I didn't know much about the business side of it. But you can't do that. You can't take things personally. Because when you take things personally, people will screw you over. So have fun, love the music, but be smart about it.

Malice
October 8, 2002